WWA Info Exchange

I have inherited an old dining room table that I'd like to refinish. It used to be Army Quartermaster furniture which means it has to be able to withstand many, many families moving in and out and using and abusing it. So, in that regard, this table was covered in frighteningly ugly Formica. I've removed the Formica and I'm left with lots of contact cement on the table top. I'd like to veneer the top with wood. After sanding with my ROS and 80 grit most of the glue is gone, but there is still enough there to feel.

The question: how much of the old contact cement do I have to remove? Is it enough to sand it smooth or does it all have to come off to put wood veneer on the table top?

Two issues I see that would affect the project.

First is what kind of veneer do you plan on using? A true wood veneer sliced as thin as some of the stuff I've seen would indeed allow any imperfections to telegraph through from the substrate. Meaning I'd want the top to be as level and smooth as if I were going to apply a varnish or other transparent finish. If you can "feel" the old contact cement it might show up through the new veneer.

Second is what kind of adhesive you'll use to apply the new veneer. If you plan on using contact cement then any old residual cement wouldn't be a problem other than described above.

I wouldn't do this indoors but ... soak a rag with toluene (contact cement thinner/cleaner) and scrub the surface. Let it stand a spell and the old cement will soften. Repeat as required. You should be able to clean the top down to bare wood. But I repeat - DON'T DO THIS INDOORS. As you probably know, toluene is not just highly flamable, it's HIGHLY FLAMABLE. It's an extreme breathing hazard. I believe I read somewhere that it can be absorbed through the skin so wear gloves.

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Nullum Gratuitum Prandium

Cheers - Dennis

Thanks for the quick reply!

Actually, I've never veneered anything so I'm not sure what I'm going to use. The plan was to go to the local lumber yard and see what they had. The rest of the plan was to use contact cement because I already own a can of it.

I wish I would have found out about toluene about two hours of sanding ago!

As far as imperfections go, there are some divots in the table top. Looks like problems with the original plywood and some damage that I did getting off the Formica. Can I use some kind of filler and fill these? Will contact cement act as a gap filler?

The glue can be removed with lacquer thinner.

I agree with Dennis, but since you've said you've never veneered, I'd also suggest that you bone up on techniques. The substrate must be flat and smooth to start. Just like painting, prep is critical.

Also, a favorite adhesive is hide glue because it pulls the materials together as it dries and dries hard. Other glues don't dry hard and will 'squirm' a tiny, but noticeable, amount especially over large surfaces, as the seasons change and the wood shrinks and expands. Possibly opening up join lines, which you don't want.

I'd also recommend against the paperbacked or "preglued iron on" veneers you usually find at local big box stores or others that don't specialize in this.

Different techniques include 1) vacuum press, 2) hammer veneering, 3) clamps and cauls.

I'd suggest this site for more info: http://www.joewoodworker.com/ .

Good luck with this project, and we're here to help.

_________________
I bring to life, I bring to death:
The spirit does but mean the breath:
I know no more. (Tennyson, In Memoriam)

I would not count on the glue as a gap filler. Fill it with something that is somewhat porous though or the new glue will most likely not adhere to it. I guess contact cement would adhere to a patch but I can't think of anything else I would try. Gene is right, go to joewoodworker, he is glad to answer emails and there is a lot on the FAQ list. Also that a look at his veneers, good service and decent prices.

Hey Tim,

Here's another vote for hide glue and hammer veneering for a table top. It sounds complicated, but really it's the easiest and most reliable way, albeit messy.

Also, here's a tip for removing contact cement and rubber cement. Get a large chuck of dry ice and set it on the glue patch, then push it to another patch an use a sharp scraper to scrape up the frozen glue. It should just fracture away easily, and there's no solvent to drive the glue into the wood, and no fumes.

Tom

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"There is no path to peace, peace is the path."
Mohandas K. Ghandi

Dang! I should have asked before I started. First I sanded, then I followed the original advice to use chemical (very stinky, potentially deadly, based on the label), then back to sanding. Dry ice sounds like it would have been more enjoyable.

Project update: like I said above, I've sanded and stripped my way to a fairly clear table top. I filled the defects with wood filler. Next step, buy some veneer and hide glue. I was going to use the contact cement I already own but reading everyone's comments and joewoodworker I'm switching.

Ah yes. Dry ice, and then Tim The Toolman drives the bobcat onstage. Good episode.

Kids love huffing toluene, but it makes their brain old fast. Check your lacquer thinner MSDS, it'll scare you to death. Toluene almost looks good compared to some components.

Indeed, if you've not worked with contact cement before, this is not the place to learn. That's one drawback to using solvents to remove the glue: you risk driving the dissolved adhesive into the wood which can adversely affect the bond between the new veneer and the substrate.

Hammer veneering & hide glue is outside my sphere of experience but it has it's advocates. As has been said, spend the time, and money, to practice before you tackle the real thing.

_________________
Nullum Gratuitum Prandium

Cheers - Dennis

I have begun exploring my options for veneering the tabletop. At the advice of Gene I checked out www.joewoodworker.com. I have also gone to my local lumberyard, Yukon Lumber, to ask about what they have available. Now I'm overwhelmed by choices.

I read up on hammer veneering and it sounds like the way I want to go.

How do I know what to get: paper-backed veneer and if so what thickness or wood-on-wood and if so do I want cross grain or parallel grain?

What do I need to know to choose?

Hey Tim,

If you are going to do hammer veneering, then I would avoid using paper backed veneers. Part of the technique is to pump the glue up through the veneer to act as lube for the hammer. It's also what makes hammer veneering so messy. The paper backing prevents the glue from coming through.

I have used paper backed veneer very successfully with urea formaldehyde glue and a vacuum bag. In fact, it's what I would recommend for that technique, but not for hammer veneering.

Just my 2¢,
Tom

_________________
"There is no path to peace, peace is the path."
Mohandas K. Ghandi

I agree with Tom, re the paper backed vs. wood veneer. Also, since you mentioned this is a table , setting up a vacuum press system for something that large might be more than you want to tackle although it can be done.

Most veneer's these days are pretty thin, and a table takes a lot of abuse usually. You might want to lay down a double thickness.

PS: You'll want a roll or 2. I've used "Allwood" 2ply veneer on table tops with success. You can get it from
http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page ... te=ROCKLER or http://woodworker.com/

It's cut straight and relatively easy to work with. Limited species tho.

Usually, large table tops will have the grain of the veneer at 90 deg to the long axis of the table.

_________________
I bring to life, I bring to death:
The spirit does but mean the breath:
I know no more. (Tennyson, In Memoriam)