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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:17 pm 
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to woodworkers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=E3mzhvMgrLE&NR=1

see it in slow motion......

Just wow !!!

Skyrider


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:07 pm 
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You have to admire a person who believes in their product. He posted here quite a bit when the technology was rather new and he was seeking comercial entries.

NONETHELESS-------- Here's your sign !

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:52 am 
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I wish I could afford a Saw Stop. I would own one in a heart beat.
I tend to agree with Dennis that learning on a saw like that may lead to over confidence but, better to have all ten fingers when you graduate than two or three stumps.
I just hope they don't make a LAW that requires ALL saws to have that ability.
Seat belts and air bags come to mind when I think of "Big Brother" protecting me and my health. The cost of autos went sky high and I hope that doesn't happen to table saws too.

Rog

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 1:48 pm 
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That's been my stand all along. You really need to maintain a healthy respect for your tools. And the safer we try to make things the more wreckless people tend to be.

Back in the days before seat belts, air bags and when we still had STEEL Dash boards, there was no such thing as agressive drivers and Road Rage. The safer we make the cars, the more careless and wreckless the drivers.

Unfortunately, in the current days of "no one is responcible for their actions" with an ambulance chaser on every street corner, these safety devices are all but mandatory for schools.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 2:26 pm 
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Hey Guys,

Years ago, I was lucky enough to see a presentation of the prototype, at a National Instruments, LabView™ seminar. At the seminar, they described the logic used in the capacitance discharge circuit that is the trigger. Like they say in the video, it's essentially the same as a touch lamp, but it operates at a much higher frequency, in order to achieve the necessary speed.

I think that everyone is impressed with the feature, and it's potential to save limbs and even lives. But there is controversy in the way the inventor is promoting it. He is lobbying lawmakers to make it a required feature on all saws sold in the country, both foreign and domestic.

The industry is fighting him, not because it doesn't want to incorporate the feature, but mostly because they don't want to open the liability window of being responsible for the saw's safe operation. It just goes back to what Dennis said about being responsible for your own safety.

[edit] Interestingly enough, I just received an email from the Woodshop News about an award in a lawsuit where the absence of a SawStop was considered to be a design defect. The SawStop inventor was a witness for the plaintiff. See it here.

Tom

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 7:31 pm 
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Quote:
Interestingly enough, I just received an email from the Woodshop News about an award in a lawsuit where the absence of a SawStop was considered to be a design defect. The SawStop inventor was a witness for the plaintiff. See it here.


Dammit. He won?!!!

"In Massachusetts, a comparative negligence standard is used, which means if a consumer himself is determined to be 50 percent or less negligent, he can still recover, Sullivan explains. In the Osorio case, the jury assigned 35 percent negligence to Osorio, and 65 percent negligence to Ryobi. But because the saw was also deemed defective, the negligence percentage of the user didn't matter. The breach of warranty of merchantability is a form of strict product liability, making the manufacturer liable for damages regardless of a product user's own mistake."

Wow. This sets an absolutely horrible legal precedent.

The irresponsible things that man was doing should never have resulted in an award. Ever.

http://blogs.popularwoodworking.com/edi ... Fence.aspx


Walking away shaking my head in shame.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:11 pm 
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It is bad enough that a lawyer would even take on a case like that but, why doesn't a judge just throw it out of court when the "victim" admits to such irresponsable use of a power tool ?
All that does is cost all of us responsable folks money and new laws in the long run. :mad:

Rog

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An ounce of responsibility is worth a pound of State and Federal laws.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 21, 2010 9:26 pm 
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This boggles my mind this guy should of did us all a favor and fell on the saw instead of losing some fingers. I cant understand the stupidity of people i guess thats a good thing because if i did understand that would make me one of them. :shock: So now i guess if you buy a product and it doesnt do what you think it should even though you are fully aware of the products purpose, features and abilities you can sue the MFG. because this other brand is better and i want you to put this feature on your stuff.? ... I just cant believe this Ryobi should have called "REAL" woodworkers to the stand and let them show their hands ....ALL TEN .... no further questions.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:14 am 
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time will tell.

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Last edited by James Kolody on Mon Apr 26, 2010 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 7:42 am 
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I'm going to cut and paste what I wrote in another forum recently . . .

I guess this is a good place to tell you all about a little piece of information I learned a while ago:

I don't know exactly when, but a few years ago a large number of table saw manufactures got together and contracted out a small R&D firm in Silicon Valley to come up with a design for a blade braking system, similar to the Saw Stop, but not infringing on their patents. How do I know this? My best friend worked at that R&D firm.

So they came up with a design that not only stopped the blade faster than the Saw Stop, it also didn't destroy the blade either. He said their recharge "kit" was going to be fairly cheap, like a $20 CO2 type of cartridge.

My friend told me a few things about the project that were of interest. He said there was plenty of prior art to get around the Saw Stop patent. Just because the inventor happened to be a patent attorney doesn't mean he had the technology completely covered. He also thought the tool companies were really just covering themselves in the event that they were required to provide the technology on their saws. He wasn't sure if their design would ever make it to market.

His R&D company gave the base design to the tool companies with the idea that they could modify/design their own versions if they so chose to.

That's the last I really heard of it as my friend left the company last summer.

I keep waiting for one of the manufacturers to unveil their braking system.

-Brian

BTW, This was all second hand knowledge through my friend, so the details may not be 100% accurate.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:19 am 
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ytsejamr wrote:
BTW, This was all second hand knowledge through my friend, so the details may not be 100% accurate.


Maybe not, but interesting just the same.

This whole thing is just another example of the dumbing down of our society. :mad:

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 8:13 pm 
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I was thinking you had to be grounded to the saw (touching some metal)for it to work. It don't look that way in the video.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:15 pm 
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Hey Bob,

The system works by measuring a change in the capacitance of a high frequency circuit. By measuring at a very high frequency, they essentially have a very high sampling rate so that the saw can be stopped from one tooth to the next. Once someone's finger (or a hot dog) touches the blade, the capacitance is increase dramatically, during the next cycle of the sine wave, the fuse wire that holds back the brake is burnt.

Tom

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 22, 2010 10:15 pm 
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I recently purchased a saw stop about 6 months ago, and I am not sure why some of you are calling it gimmicky. Is hearing protection, or eyewear gimmicky, shop aprons, steel toed shoes, blade guards, riving knives, magnetic switches, etc., etc...All these thing were new to the market at one time or another. Now they are considered comonplace and most of us use these things without thought. Does anyone think a blade guard alone may protect them?

How about seatbelts? Do we all take them for granted? A saw stop is like a seatbelt, it is designed to work to protect in certain way, but there are always cases where they are less affective.

All I know is that I use my saw more safely now with the saw stop than when I used my delta. I am more conscious of what I am doing when using it. That logo is a constant reminder of the dangers of using power tools. And the technology may or may not work so why test it?

Is it so bad for a consumer to want to be as safe as they can without the preclusion of throwing caution to the wind? Please don't assume that a user is being or becoming more careless because of a piece of technology.

I don't believe the government should help pad the pockets of an inventor, but rather capitalism determine the path.

Darryl


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 12:17 pm 
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If the lawsuits this technology has created keep coming (and they will), we won't be able to buy anything but a SS.

http://blog.woodshopnews.com/workbench/?p=238

I personally will never own one because of the way the owner tried to force it on the world.

My opinion.

Phil

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 2:26 pm 
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Cost of new sawstop professional approximetly $3000. Cost of new model Unisaw approximately $3000. Cost of trip to emergency room for thirteen stiches $1080. Loss of one weeks wages ( skilled trades tool and die ) while waiting for fingers to heal enough to return to work $1540. If you compare the numbers you can see why I'll replace my unisaw with a saw stop when the grandson gets old enought to start using the table saw! I only regret they did not have the saw stops when I got my new (at the time) unisaw. The unisaw is one good saw but I still miss the end of my finger . And I don't want the grandson ending up like "short finger Fred" or "One Thumb Tom" who were both over fiftyfive and experienced when they had their accidents. I just lost one side of a finger at the tip but it still hurt!


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 4:07 pm 
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Are you saying that it was the saw's fault that you cut your finger?

When my son gets old enough to use my unisaw, I will teach him the correct way to use it and proper safety for it and all of the rest of the tools in the shop.

There is some inherent risk in most power tools, not just the TS.

It would be even safer to not allow him to use it at all.

Having a choice to buy a cool technology like the SS is fine, forcing us to buy it is not.

Phil

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:59 pm 
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This lawsuit is clearly about money and makes a mockery of safety. Do we really expect all manufacturers to recall any product to be refitted any time a new safety feature comes out? Should I sue GM if I hit a tree with my '57 chevy and the air bags didn't deploy or should I be held responsible for understanding the limitations of the machine I'm operating? The answer is clear to all except the ambulance chasers (and a few jury members).

regards,

John


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:27 am 
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Whoa, folks! - let's keep our cool. The subject line/thread is simply addressing the faith one man has in a product he's conceived and his willingness to subject himself to the ultimate test. Not exactly Samuri sword maker tradition but what the hey.

There's a definite polarity here, and that's fine but some of the dialog is kinda one-to-one. Consider going to PM's if it's becoming a more direct conversation.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 5:32 pm 
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"I personally will never own one because of the way the owner tried to force it on the world."

That is exactly my position also.

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